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Usr6

Bitcoin is the greatest scam in history

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I’m tired of saying, “Be careful, it’s speculative.” Then, “Be careful, it’s gambling.” Then, “Be careful, it’s a bubble.” Okay, I’ll say it: Bitcoin is a scam.

 

In my opinion, it’s a colossal pump-and-dump scheme, the likes of which the world has never seen. In a pump-and-dump game, promoters “pump” up the price of a security creating a speculative frenzy, then “dump” some of their holdings at artificially high prices. And some cryptocurrencies are pure frauds. Ernst & Young estimates that 10 percent of the money raised for initial coin offerings has been stolen.

The losers are ill-informed buyers caught up in the spiral of greed. The result is a massive transfer of wealth from ordinary families to internet promoters. And “massive” is a massive understatement — 1,500 different cryptocurrencies now register over $300 billion of “value.”

It helps to understand that a bitcoin has no value at all.

Promoters claim cryptocurrency is valuable as (1) a means of payment, (2) a store of value and/or (3) a thing in itself. None of these claims are true.

 

1. Means of Payment. Bitcoins are accepted almost nowhere, and some cryptocurrencies nowhere at all. Even where accepted, a currency whose value can swing 10 percent or more in a single day is useless as a means of payment.

2. Store of Value. Extreme price volatility also makes bitcoin undesirable as a store of value. And the storehouses — the cryptocurrency trading exchanges — are far less reliable and trustworthy than ordinary banks and brokers.

3. Thing in Itself. A bitcoin has no intrinsic value. It only has value if people think other people will buy it for a higher price — the Greater Fool theory.

 

Some cryptocurrencies, like Sweatcoin, which is redeemable for workout gear, are the equivalent of online coupons or frequent flier points — a purpose better served by simple promo codes than complex encryption.

Indeed, for the vast majority of uses, bitcoin has no role. Dollars, pounds, euros, yen and renminbi are better means of payment, stores of value and things in themselves.

Cryptocurrency is best-suited for one use: Criminal activity. Because transactions can be anonymous — law enforcement cannot easily trace who buys and sells — its use is dominated by illegal endeavors.

Most heavy users of bitcoin are criminals, such as Silk Road and WannaCry ransomware. Too many bitcoin exchanges have experienced spectacular heists, such as NiceHash and Coincheck, or outright fraud, such as Mt. Gox and Bitfunder. Way too many Initial Coin Offerings are scams — 418 of the 902 ICOs in 2017 have already failed.

Hackers are getting into the act. It’s estimated that 90 percent of all remote hacking is now focused on bitcoin theft by commandeering other people’s computers to mine coins.

Even ordinary buyers are flouting the law. Tax law requires that every sale of cryptocurrency be recorded as a capital gain or loss and, of course, most bitcoin sellers fail to do so. The IRS recently ordered one major exchange to produce records of every significant transaction.

And yet, a prominent Silicon Valley promoter of bitcoin proclaims that “Bitcoin is going to transform society ... Bitcoin’s been very resilient. It stayed alive during a very difficult time when there was the Silk Road mess, when Mt. Gox stole all that Bitcoin ...” He argues the criminal activity shows that bitcoin is strong. I’d say it shows that bitcoin is used for criminal activity.

Bitcoin transactions are sometimes promoted as instant and nearly free, but they’re often relatively slow and expensive. It takes about an hour for a bitcoin transaction to be confirmed, and the bitcoin system is limited to five transactions per second. MasterCard can process 38,000 per second. Transferring $100 from one person to another costs about $6 using a cryptocurrency exchange, and well less than $1 using an electronic check.

Bitcoin is absurdly wasteful of natural resources. Because it is so compute-intensive, it takes as much electricity to create a single bitcoin — a process called “mining” — as it does to power an average American household for two years. If bitcoin were used for a large portion of the world’s commerce (which won’t happen), it would consume a very large portion of the world’s electricity, diverting scarce power from useful purposes.

In what rational universe could someone simply issue electronic scrip — or just announce that they intend to — and create, out of the blue, billions of dollars of value? It makes no sense.

All of this would be a comic sideshow if innocent people weren’t at risk. But ordinary people are investing some of their life savings in cryptocurrency. One stock brokerage is encouraging its customers to purchase bitcoin for their retirement accounts!

It’s the job of the SEC and other regulators to protect ordinary investors from misleading and fraudulent schemes. It’s time we gave them the legislative authority to do their job.

 

Sursa: https://www.recode.net/2018/4/24/17275202/bitcoin-scam-cryptocurrency-mining-pump-dump-fraud-ico-value#

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Bullshit.

Tipul asta nu intelege ce e bitcoin si nu are habar de tehnologia din spatele monedei.

 

1. Tranzactiile bitcoin costa mult prea mult (6$) si necesita prea multa putere de calcul. Bitcoin(si celelalte monede) trebuie sa se schimbe ca sa poata creste.

 

2. Da, pretul monedelor fluctueaza prea tare. E o piata foarte speculativa.

Cine investeste in criptomonede risca sa piarda multi bani.

 

3. Bitcoin are valoare intrinsica!

Valoarea bitcoinului este mai masurabila si mai tangibila decat aurul.

Bitcoin apare ca PROOF of WORK! Adica e o munca depusa pentru fiecare BTC. Nu apar bani din aer.

 

4. Marimea blockchainului e alta problema pe langa tranzactii/secunda care trebuie adresata. Daca se gasesc solutii la problemele astea BTC are un viitor bun.

 

Bitcon e ce e. Toate modedele din lume, si $ € £ sunt folosite de criminali si mereu o sa existe crime.

Ca exemplu furtul de carduri nu a condus la disparitia cardului.

 

Toata ideea criptomonedelor e sa nu fie controlate de guvern. Deci de ce ne plangem ca nu sunt controlate de guvern?!?

 

Da BTC are probleme dar are si valoare la fel ca orice modeda($ € £). Pretul de trade e umflat si speculat dar in timp o sa se stabilizeze usor la o valoare constanta.

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4 hours ago, yoyois said:

3. Bitcoin are valoare intrinsica!

 

Bitcoin doesn’t have intrinsic or inherent value. This isn’t as serious a handicap as it might seem, because nothing has intrinsic value. Not government notes, not gold, not even grain, or salt.

Intrinsic value cannot exist because value is subjective. Value exists only in minds. A mind imputes value to a particular instance of a thing in accordance with how useful it believes that thing will be in the service of satisfying its wants. Human wants are subjective. Wants, and their relative intensities, vary from person to person, and from day to day.

https://medium.com/@mormo_music/bitcoin-has-no-intrinsic-value-neither-does-gold-464584a505e6

 

Another source of concern—that bitcoin is dicey because it lacks “intrinsic value”—is a weak argument. In truth, almost nothing in the world of trading and money has “intrinsic value.” Money has only the value that is ascribed to it over time. Fiat currency, issued by nations, has always faced distrust from skeptics who say it is backed only a government’s good faith. That helps explain the nostalgia for the gold standard, when dollars and other government paper represented a fractional interest in gold.

Dig a bit deeper, however, and it becomes clear that gold itself has no intrinsic value. Its supply is limited (as is bitcoin, a strength of the digital currency), creating a relationship between supply and demand that cannot easily be manipulated. But gold itself has no value per se other than that ascribed to it by humans over time. It’s easy to believe in its value because people have done so for thousands of years, but that doesn’t translate into actual value, only greater trust.
https://www.wired.com/story/bitcoin-has-no-intrinsic-value-neither-does-a-dollar1-bill/

Cum ii pana la urma cu valoarea intrinseca? Nu stiu de ce te agiti, fiecare varianta are avantaje si dezavantaje.

Si nu vad cum ar functiona treaba(economia) doar cu crypto fara fiat, daca ne gandim la sustinerea guvernamentala si legislatia din spate. Poate sti tu mai bine cum ar fi fara monezi controlate de guverne sau legi.

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some weeks a go bitcoin was around 6k now is around 9k so anyone invest one has a + 3k doing nothing isn't it?

 

so anyone with brain that seen how to make $ can make them easy without need go working for others.

 

No scam from Bitcoin, only scam are people that speculate this market and cheat others by clamming unlimited profit from nothing.

 

 

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Daca investeai atunci cand nu valora aproape nimic, acum erai miliardar cu piscina...

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De curiozitate, cine de pe aici a facut cel putin cateva mii de euro din Bitcoin sau alte monede?

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33 minutes ago, Nytro said:

De curiozitate, cine de pe aici a facut cel putin cateva mii de euro din Bitcoin sau alte monede?

E o intrebare pe care mi-am pus-o si eu. Foarte multi  au cumparat btc sau alte monede. (unii au facut si credite la banca, dar asta e o alta poveste...) Toti spun chestii de genul, ¨daca ii scoteam acum x timp as fi avut nu stiu ce castig¨, dar inca nu l-am intalnit si pe unul care sa spuna ca a scos  de o ciorba cel putin (mancata si digerata deja, nu doar ipotetic).... Totul se invarte in jurul lui ¨daca¨....

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50 minutes ago, usrnm said:

E o intrebare pe care mi-am pus-o si eu. Foarte multi  au cumparat btc sau alte monede. (unii au facut si credite la banca, dar asta e o alta poveste...) Toti spun chestii de genul, ¨daca ii scoteam acum x timp as fi avut nu stiu ce castig¨, dar inca nu l-am intalnit si pe unul care sa spuna ca a scos  de o ciorba cel putin (mancata si digerata deja, nu doar ipotetic).... Totul se invarte in jurul lui ¨daca¨....

Asa zic si dependentii de jocuri de noroc.

Asa ziceau si aia care bagau la caritas.

Am un prieten care joaca la pariuri care mi-a zis asa: "inca doua milioane si sunt pe zero".

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2 hours ago, Nytro said:

De curiozitate, cine de pe aici a facut cel putin cateva mii de euro din Bitcoin sau alte monede?

am niste prieteni care faceau "prostii" cand a aparut bitcoin si aveau sute/mii de bitcoin ( cand era bitcoin $2-3 de la inceput)

si toti 3 sunt plecati, argentina.mexico,anglia.

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2 hours ago, Nytro said:

De curiozitate, cine de pe aici a facut cel putin cateva mii de euro din Bitcoin sau alte monede?

Prezent!

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28 minutes ago, em20346 said:

am niste prieteni care faceau "prostii" cand a aparut bitcoin si aveau sute/mii de bitcoin ( cand era bitcoin $2-3 de la inceput)

si toti 3 sunt plecati, argentina.mexico,anglia.

Sa inteleg ca toti o duc bine acum, nu? 

Oricum, exceptand aceste cazuri care probabil sunt putine, dintre cei care au intrat mai tarziu in asta, s-a imbogatit cineva? 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Nytro said:

Sa inteleg ca toti o duc bine acum, nu? 

Oricum, exceptand aceste cazuri care probabil sunt putine, dintre cei care au intrat mai tarziu in asta, s-a imbogatit cineva? 

 

 

benny lopata

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6 minutes ago, Nytro said:

Sa inteleg ca toti o duc bine acum, nu? 

Oricum, exceptand aceste cazuri care probabil sunt putine, dintre cei care au intrat mai tarziu in asta, s-a imbogatit cineva? 

 

 

 

Depinde ce consideri prin imbogatire, standardele difera. Cu cat ai mai mult, cu atat iti doresti mai mult, e direct proportional..

 

Daca iti asumi niste riscuri calculate si cu putin noroc, iese un un profit frumusel care permite anumite achizitii, concedii, lifestyle. Pentru life-changing stuff (pensionare tinereasca) ai nevoie de capital care unii si-l permit sa-l piarda, altii risca totul pentru. Personal, am reinvestit pe termen lung. Ramane de vazut daca am facut-o bine ori ba.

 

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10 minutes ago, Gecko said:

Nu va grabiti sa blamati sistemul pentru incompetenta voastra de a-l aprofunda.

Asta nu e argument man, e ca la hainele cele noi ale imparatului. Care zice ca imparatul e in pula goala e prost.

Cei mai buni profi din facultate stiau sa explice simplu si elegant. O minte slaba iti va zice mereu ca e prea complicat sa intelegi.

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1 hour ago, Gecko said:

Nu exista profit fara ca altii sa piarda, de aceea nu poate exista o metoda de investitii complet sigura pentru toate partile implicate.

 

Huh? Pe asta de unde ai scos-o?

 

Ex: Ion Cutarescu are 200k Euro disponibili pentru investit de la matusa Tamara. Se uita si vede ca in localitatea Ciorile nu sunt optiuni decente de hrana rapida. Investeste si deschide un Subway. Cine pierde? Cetatenii multumiti ca pot manca rapid, relativ sanatos si la un pret decent fara sa mai stea de gatit, pot merge direct la prasit si la somn. Supplierii locali de rosii, castraveti, etc. sunt si ei multumiti. Angajatii si ei multumti ca au loc de munca. Taxman si el multumit. Cine pierde? (#retorica)

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Gecko said:

Compari doua lucruri diferite pentru ca nu diferentiezi conceptul de profit de investitie.

 

https://dexonline.ro/definitie/investitie

 

Investitia nu garanteaza profitul.

 

Exemplul tau este unul in care Ion Cutarescu isi recastiga suma investita prin profitul generat de succesul acesteia, insa investitia a fost pierduta inca de la inceput. Nu-i garanteaza nimeni faptul ca oamenii vor cumpara din magazinul sau. Ion Cutarescu investeste si pierde instantaneu, iar apoi, datorita faptului ca lumea este interesata de investitia sa, isi recastiga investitia. Insa, in acelasi timp, daca Gigel vine cu o alta oferta, mai buna, lui Ion Cutarescu i se diminueaza profitul, deci exista posibilitatea ca investitia initiala sa nu fie recuperata.

 

Daca toate situatiile de investitie s-ar preta retoricii tale, de ce mai exista firme care dau faliment?

 

In alta ordine de idei, Ion Cutarescu nu face parte din acelasi grup cu clientii sai, la fel cum clientii unui Broker nu fac parte din piata, ci doar sunt reprezentati de el. Deci de ce ai spune ca ce am spus e incorect pentru ca nu pierd clientii sai, guvernul, sau alte persoane care depind de investitia lui? Nu are sens. Comparatia pe care o poti face e intre Ion Cutarescu si Gigel.

 

Nu la investitie - profit si la ce explici tu aici ma refeream ci la ce ai spus tu ->

2 hours ago, Gecko said:

Nu exista profit fara ca altii sa piarda, de aceea nu poate exista o metoda de investitii complet sigura pentru toate partile implicate.

In exemplul dat de mine, cine sunt acei altii care pierd?

 

Din cum te-ai exprimat mai sus se poate intelege afirmatia "pentru ca unii sa castige (profit) e nevoie ca altii (multi cum ai spus tu) sa piarda", un fel de sistem loterie (multi cumpara bilete -> contribuie pentru acei putini care castiga).

 

Daca am inteles gresit my bad.

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deci cand e jos si toti zic ca crapa si se duce dracului Bitcoin-ul ( sau alte monede ) cumparati, stati un timp si nu faceti nimica si cand creste vindeti, sunt convins ca cacatii de pe Wall Street sau Mafia asa fac, schema se repeta 6 mii - 9 mii deja e de 2 ori anul acesta, daca nu ma insel... dar daca sunteti curiosi verificati informatiile sunt foarte clare....

 

si nu luati de bun tot ce se scrie ca multe sunt vrajeli ieftine, zvonuri si interese de tot felul,

 

https://coinmarketcap.com/

Edited by RFR

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p.s: intr-o zi cand am aflat ca bunica e suspecta de cancer nu m-am mai putut controla si am pierdut tot. jocurile de noroc sunt pentru roboti, nu pentru oameni.

Edited by j1ll2013
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Ii un cerc, sper ca nu vreti sa va desenez? Cutarescu vinde mancare, plateste angajati care la randul lor cheltuie bani pe mancare, intretinere, masina si alte cacaturi, acestea fiind produse de Cutarescu 2 si 3. Investitia lui Cutarescu se duce in chirie (locatia a fost construita de cineva iarasi un cerc), materie prima etc etc.
 

Consumatorii pierd, aia care traiesc de pe o luna pe alta pentru ca trebuie sa supravietuiasca. De aia exemplul cu mancarea nu prea se potriveste cu bitcointul.

Mancarea intra la necessity good (Necessity goods are goods that we cannot live without and will not likely cut back on even when times are tough, for example food, power, water and gas). Nici despre substitute good nu strica sa stiti, de la "optiuni decente" pana la "monopol" ii cale lunga. Nu este Subway dar o chifla si doua felii de parizer tot isi cumpara de la magazin. 

Falimentul ii doar rezultatul autoreglari pietei. Deschide Cutarescu fast food, erau deja 4 unitati dar oferta nu depasea cererea. Se inverseaza balanta, oferta depasea cererea si cel mai slab/neperformant va trage oblonul. Simplu. Mai scade si pretul, exemplu cel mai bun ii pretul petrolului.

Revenind la bitcoin, sa intelegi/vizualizezi ca cineva tot timpul pierde trebuie sa inchizi cercul, mai exact sa scoti tot capitalul investit, sa ajungi din nou la 0. Sau pretul sa fie 1000, urca la 2000 si coboara din nou la 1000, acelasi lucru. 

La Fiat, statul poate sa pompeze bani cum a facut America in timpul crizelor economice. Era un documentar in care se zicea ca SUA a iesit din criza anilor '30 doar dupa ce a intrat in Al Doilea Razboi Mondial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Unemployment_1910-1960.gif

Edit: Documentar https://youtu.be/CkHooEp3vRE?t=41m1s
Un alt contex unde se observa ca cine pierde ii daca avem un scenariu in care toti vand la pretul cu care au cumparat (utopie). In acest caz nimeni nu pierde dar nici nu castiga, la polul opus tot timpul cineva va pierde cand se trage linie.

Edited by gaddafi
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Un alt punct de vedere asupra economiei actuale si de unde apate profitul.

@Gecko doar ca referinta, autorii nu pretind ca ce spun ei e verificat.

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18 hours ago, Nytro said:

De curiozitate, cine de pe aici a facut cel putin cateva mii de euro din Bitcoin sau alte monede?

prezent

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20 hours ago, Nytro said:

Sa inteleg ca toti o duc bine acum, nu? 

Oricum, exceptand aceste cazuri care probabil sunt putine, dintre cei care au intrat mai tarziu in asta, s-a imbogatit cineva? 

 

 

chiar daca 2 din aia 3 au cu executare in romania cel putin 10-15 ani. milionari in euro.

ala din mexico are compania lui de telefonie gen vodafone/voip

dupa ce si au luat teapa cu liberty rezerve (aveau bani in cont cand s a inchis site)

de data asta au retras fiecare bitcoin la 10.000.

partea buna e ca inca primesc bitcoin in schimbul la ........

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2 hours ago, em20346 said:

chiar daca 2 din aia 3 au cu executare in romania cel putin 10-15 ani. milionari in euro.

ala din mexico are compania lui de telefonie gen vodafone/voip

dupa ce si au luat teapa cu liberty rezerve (aveau bani in cont cand s a inchis site)

de data asta au retras fiecare bitcoin la 10.000.

partea buna e ca inca primesc bitcoin in schimbul la ........

S-ar putea sa avem cunostinte comune, doar ca nu mai stiam nimic de el de cativa ani, ca are companie de telefoane si e ok. Constantean?

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